My Debate with an Older Conservative- MUST READ

Posted: June 13, 2010 in Political Commentary, The Blog!

So this past Tuesday at work I got into a long debate with a conservative who basically called me a socialist because I said I was a liberal or progressive and wanted to get health care to people who couldn’t afford it. He said I was obviously misinformed and actually got very angry at me. This guy is a good guy, I see him almost every week and it was just the first time we go into talking about politics. He said I was off of his “A” list, which got an internal laugh but I let him speak. The topic of taxes came up, and he said he disliked the current “Progressive” tax system and favored a “Fair” tax system. The current tax system we have now, progressive, works by taxing people more as they make more. His argument is either make the tax system a “Flat” tax, or what he favored more, a “Fair” Tax. I disagree with a “Flat” tax and upon further reading on a “Fair” tax, I disagree with that as well and learned it isn’t very fair at all. A “Flat” tax would reform the current system and impliment a natinal tax pertentage on everyone. Basically, for argument sakes, if it was 10% someone in the lower class would be taxed 10% on his income and someone who is in the upper class would do the same. However, the problem here is that let’s say that someone makes $20,000 a year. He would be taxed 10% on that, $2,000. For someone of that income, $2,000 can really hit them hard, however someone who makes $200,000 would be taxed $20,000. Now that amount is significantly more, but someone making that much to start with wouldn’t be effected on the same level of that of someone in the lower class. The “Fair” tax, eliminates all natinal tax and only taxes people on the money they spend. It sounds fair, what you spend, you get taxed on. However, people that are in the lower or even “middle class” spend almost every bit of their income essentially taxing them on everything they make. On the other side of the fence, someone who is in the upper class can pocket a big portion of his money and save it, without any of getting taxed. So if somone makes $100,000 a year and saves 40% of their income, $40,000, they in turn only get taxed on 60% of what they bring in as opposed to nearly 100% of the income spent by lower and middle class people, proving a “Fair tax” isn’t very fair at all.

The big argument going on today is about health care. President Obama was able to get a bill passed through the House and the Senate that will be a complete overhaul of the health care system in this country. President Obama cut 95% of taxes for working families and small businesses and raised taxes for the upper 5% of people as well as bigger businesses. The taxes raised on the wealthier people in the country, however, is not any higher than it was during the 1990’s when President Clinton was able to put this country into a surplus. You here from the republications that this is horrible, that no one should raise taxes now and that there money shouldn’t go to people who don’t deserve a tax break or health care. What they aren’t telling you is that the money that essentially is being returned to the government from the wealthy by raising there taxes is just the extra money they got during the Bush tax cuts. Bush put his tax cut into effect and it cut tax’s across the board. However, the tax burden fell more on the lower and middle class and the upper 2% received the majority of the tax breaks as well as the bigger businesses in the country. In addition, another argument that you here is that this “supply side economics” , another term for the trickle down effect, is that by giving tax breaks to the wealthy, it will enable them to create new jobs. Looking back at the horrible debt and loss of jobs during the Bush administration it just proves once again that this type of tax “cut” doesn’t work and doesn’t trickle down, it just rises up. On the health care front, the taxes that are being put into effect are going to help knock down the national debt as well as help pay for the new health care reform. Along with raising taxes on the upper class, President Obama raised taxes on cigarettes and even added a tax on tanning salons, all good ways to help pay for the new plan. The argument I got from the conservative at work, was that most people on welfare don’t work and just collect a check and now will be able to get health care from the rich peoples taxes. What you have to understand is that nothing is perfect, any system over time will break. It is just the natural form of evolution that things break down over time, and a system put into effect by the government or people or whoever it might be will show signs of cracking if it is not looked over and reformed when needed. The truth is that there are people who either receive welfare, food stamps, some sort of Medicaid or Medicare or WIC checks to help with there children and some of those people rely on those forms of service and don’t work or have limited work. The truth is that though there are people who “mooch” off of the government, most do not. Most people who use government aid to help them make ends meet. The health care reform that was voted into effect, will make health care more affordable for people in this country. The myth is that you can walk into a hospital and just be taken care of. We aren’t receiving free health care but much more affordable health care. The government will set guidelines on the minimum amount of care that will be presented and everyone will be required to purchase this. The talking heads on the right are saying that if you don’t buy health care someone will be knocking your door down and arrest you. Of course, considering the source of these claims, we know that it is just silly and an outright lie. The total amount that the health care will cost is really unknown at this time as the numbers are still being worked out, it is important to note that anyone making less than 4x the poverty level (poverty level=$11,000) will be offered government assistance, similar to financial aid people get to go to college.In addition, if you currently have coverage, either independently or through your employer, you can choose to stay on that plan.

As the conversation went on I realized how dived the country is just in my work place alone. The conversation hit other issues like abortion, separation of church and state and how our founding fathers allegedly based our country on god and Christianity, which has been proven time and time again that the founding fathers were very upfront about not having the country based on any religion at all, and some actually spoke out against very clearly. Our country is not just separated by left and right, it’s almost like it is separated by the far left and the far right. The moderate seems to have no place in politics anymore and if you land in the middle the backlash from your party will be huge. I am a lefty, a liberal, progressive, call it what you will, but this country as been taking so far to the right you need people closer to the left to make things in the center again. The conservative at my job said President Obama needs to stop blaming Bush and just “fix it” already. What the right needs to understand is that they have to get over and understand that this country was gutted and ripped apart for 8 years and it can not be fixed in less than a year and a half. The reason people blame Bush is because it is his mess that we are trying to clean up and the conservatives just try to find a way to blame President Obama for anything they can. It would be like if you moved into a house that someone had trashed and someone blamed you for the mess because you didn’t clean it fast enough and the person who made the mess is just left to live how they please and not except any of the blame. Our country will get better, but it will take time. Rome wasn’t build in a day and neither will the United States. It is very sad that we have a President who want’s to help get things back on track but republications decide to just filibuster everything he wants to do because they just can’t stomach giving him credit for anything. I don’t wanna act like the democrats do no wrong, they do, just not as bad as the republications. President Obama isn’t perfect, he could be stronger on many issues whether it is moving faster on pulling out troops in Iraq and instead of adding troops in Afghanistan for another year he should just be pulling them out as well and leaving an appropriate amount to maintain stability. President Obama has a lot on his plate, a meal comes in courses, in this case the courses vary. Whether it be health care reform, financial reform, jobs, climate and energy reform, the war, immigration, social issues etc. President Obama will finish the meal, you just can’t expect him to eat everything all at once.

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Comments
  1. Dori says:

    I love how you can present the facts in such an easily understandable format- good work! PS – the far right is attempting to sully Obama’s name even further by calling it “the Obama recession”……and are instructed to use this phrase as often as possible so that it will become ingrained in the national conscience.

    • I do what I can and thanks for reading…Conservatives will do whatever they can to run President Obama into the ground, all the talking heads twist facts around and at times just out right lie about him and democrats in general. Democrats aren’t always right, politics is politics, but they care more about the “average” american than the republication do.

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